Subject: RE: (SC35WG4.82) (SC35WG2.17) JTC1/SC35 meeting - Barcelona, week of 10 February 2014

From: magnabosco philippe <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 28 Jan 2014 22:49:19 +0100

Dear all

Thank you for your contributions and positions on this matter. I should like to underline a few points:

·         Coordination between working groups of SC 35 is an objective that has always been pursued by the SC 35 management and secretariat.

·         In the past, when General operational meetings were held under the leadership of the SC 35 Chair but without secretariat support, proposed resolutions were in fact formally drafts that were not executory immediately but were submitted to a yes-by-default ballot of P-Members. (see attached example from 2008 and its Procedure reminder language on page 2)

o   Many of the SC 35 resolutions are taken to acknowledge progression of work and do not need to be resolutions to be acted upon.

o   Some resolutions of SC 35 are formal requirements as per directives, they need to be approved by members at the time of GOMs and will need to be approved in the present situation as well before they become executory. This does not mean that their execution cannot be prepared by whomever is the addressee of the resolution if the outcome of the vote is 99% secure, as is so often the case.

·         Looking at SC 35 resolutions of the past 2 meetings, I do see a handful of resolutions that really cut across SC 35 WGs and impact them all at once. Resolutions on target dates, drafting policy come to mind. A much larger number of resolutions are proposed by single working groups, or by an association of WGs under the leadership of one WG (e.g. WG 5 for Voice commands, WG 1 for Gesture-based interfaces). Many of these (e.g. Mr X is asked to prepare a contribution on Z) need not be SC resolutions and need no SC-level coordination.

·         I will be happy to propose a common basis reg. target dates or other cross-cutting issues of SC 35 for WGs to refer to in Barcelona and use in their proposed resolutions.

·         ISO/IEC Directives and JTC 1 Supplement do not recognize WG “resolutions”. WGs can make recommendations that their own WG experts, WG convenor or WG secretariat support (if any) acts upon as they please, within their range of competence as WGs. Calling those resolutions  is a facility of language that is sometimes misleading. “Resolutions” are decisions by a body that has national representations, with national votes cast by nominated Heads of delegation: these bodies are typically TCs, SCs (and of course TMB). I am sure SC 2 makes it a point to make sure that decisions that are SC remit are taken at SC llevel, and do not stay mere WG “resolutions”. I have elsewhere seen cases where the distinction was not clear enough and resolutions could therefore have been challenged.
As said above, some of the SC 35 resolutions could easily remain WG recommendations or decisions and be just as valid if they were not adopted as SC 35 resolutions.

Best regards,

Philippe MAGNABOSCO
Secrétaire/Secretary
                CEN/WS ICT Skills
                ISO/IEC JTC 1/SC 35
                ISO TC 46/WG 2
AFNOR Normalisation - DTEC
11 rue Francis de Pressensé
93571 La Plaine-Saint Denis
+33 (0)1 41 62 85 02

De : [email-masked] [mailto:[email-masked]] De la part de Khalid CHOUKRI
Envoyé : mardi 28 janvier 2014 14:33
À : ALB; [email-masked]; [email-masked]; [email-masked]; [email-masked]; [email-masked]; [email-masked]
Cc : [email-masked]; magnabosco philippe; mouradi amelle; [email-masked]; [email-masked]; [email-masked]; [email-masked]
Objet : (SC35WG4.82) (SC35WG2.17) JTC1/SC35 meeting - Barcelona, week of 10 February 2014

Hi Alain

ALB wrote, On 27/01/2014 21:03:
   The only misunderstanding, Khalid, is about the resolution meeting that has been going on smoothly in the past years in absence of the secretary for interim meetings (non-Plenary with an upper-case P). AFNOR had come with a concept, the GOM (General Orientation meeting, a small plenary, in fact a resolution meeting) which was (and should continue to be according to the reactions seen) a resolution meeting after WG meetings. The resolutions were then executable immediately without the need for a letter ballot (which would be an extra administrative burden, as P- countries have quorum to decide directcly at the meeting).

I fully understand the position. The GOM as described herein and the plans to have a resolution meeting (with adoptions voted on site) requires the participation of all P-members. In my views the Intermediate meeting I introduced was not to require the presence of national representatives but only experts ;

   The only case where I have seen a resolution being sent for letter ballot after a meeting is recent, when the resolution had not been noted in official resolutions of a meeting and adoption then remaining uncertain. If this would becore a custom, that would be is an uncessary delay, an extra element thant would make sure things will not be done on time. But in a GOM, resolutions were always adopted by HoDs of represented countries. There is no reason to fix what is not broken, and thisGOM  process has always been working very well so far, it is very far to be broken. On the contrary, if we modify this process, other things will be more broken than ever, imho.

The whole discussion we had since last meeting in Busan was to bring the SC35 activities to a ONE annual (and Plenary) meeting like many other SCs and technical work being done via email/telco, at conferences, etc.. and this is a challenge that all agreed to pursue. We did not want to fix something (though I am still annoyed by the way we manage our daily activities) but rather move to a new way of doing things.

   What is broken is that many times resolutions are not executed promptly, without me wanting here to discuss about responsibilities (which are not always the fact of one person). Our goal should be that resolutions be executed so that the work be done and publications achieved. This process is broken, still, and should be fixed as smoothly as possible.

We have now agreed with AFNOR (SC35 secretariat) to monitor the management of our actions (and resolutions) more carefully. Philippe will send us the URL of a web page where he puts our action list and the corresponding execution (Philippe: could you please recirculate this again)

   GOMS are a winning process and should continue for interim meetings. This is what I had understood in Saskatoon, and it seems it was understood by others too (so far unanimously), according to the reactions seen of the WG1 forum.

Well I am surprised to see that (and hope this is only WG1!) , let us discuss it again and see how to move forward.

Best regards
Khalid

Alain
______________________________________
Le 2014-01-26 à 08:22, Khalid Choukri a écrit :

Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64Dear colleagues

Let me first express some astonishment regarding the reactions I have read since Alain's email about the plenary versus GOM  meetings, and our SC35 plans.

I think we devote time to discuss this issue in Saskatoon and reviewed all arguments pros and cons and the main conclusion was that we head to an annual meeting with a plenary, a WG meetings, and a resolution session; all running over 4 to 5 days.

The intermediate meeting (the one in February this year) would be turned into a meeting of experts as required by the corresponding WG agenda (which means some WGs would skip that meeting if no item requires a face to face meeting).

So again, the proposed modus operandi as We discussed it in Saskatoon would be:

1/ (As long as necessary) a winter/spring technical meeting to address and make progress on technical matters that may (or not) lead to resolutions. This could be an opportunity to finalize WG reports that require face to face meeting of all experts.

2/ An annual meeting with a plenary session to review the work progress, including the secretariat work and WG resolutions

3/ if a decision/action is taken during the technical meeting, the secretariat will turn this into a resolution and bring it to adoption (electronic vote) and ensure its execution,

We also discussed the scheduling of our meetings and many requirements and desiderata were expressed: I would like to ensure participation of all delegates (which excludes the major holiday seasons e.g. Christmas, Chinese new year, etc.) and necessitates a consensus for two-three years in advance.

I have asked Philippe to circulate the details of the Barcelona meeting, I hope we will get it tomorrow (Monday). I understand that most of us are upset because of the missing agenda and plans 10 days before the meeting. I hope that you made your arrangements for your flights and will share with you informations on accommodations this week.

Best regards
Khalid

> Le 26 janv. 2014 à 11:13, Yoshikazu SEKI <[email-masked]><mailto:[email-masked]> a écrit :
>
> Dear All,
BˆH[ÛÈÝ\Ü€t Alain's position.
>
> We need to gather conclusions of WGs' meetings somehow, and also need to have opportunity to know WGs' activities. We also need to decide consolidated next actions after the meeting.
>
˜\ÙYÛˆÓÀM model, we can have Resolutions even in the meeting where the secretary is absent.
™\Ý™YØ\™ËBˆB‚ðshikazu Seki
BˆBˆŒMÌKÌˆMÎNxà O[Ûš\]YK›XZPÀrange.com> <[email-masked]><mailto:[email-masked]> ã®ãƒ¡ãƒ¼ãƒ«ï¼š
B€>> Dear all,
ˆB‚f—'7BöbÆÂÂ'v÷VÆBÆ­¶RFòv—6‚you a happy new year 2014 (sorry for sending this message late (my dad pass away at the end of 2013 and I was pretty busy in the begin of the new year.)
>BˆÙ[ÙHneed a "strong cooperation between WG's in SC35" and I fully understand, support Allan's position.
ˆB‚öb6ðurse, the model adapted during the last session can save of course expenses. Nethertheless, it really seems to me that the needs of a global meeting for having an overview of the activities of the different subgroup and the opportunity to get an exchange in face to face could be e an opportunity to wrap up the seminar, stimulate by this method the cooperation and a team spirit within the SC35. The collective creativity can emerge and I am sure it could be finally an opportunity to stimulate all the energies in favour our trementous goal "the accessibility".
>B€>> If it is necessary, I propose to help Allan or to act for writting the resolutions if Philippe is not here (of course with his support).
>Bˆ]YHÛ›ÝÈYˆ\Èroposal can help ; my current vision is that a tremendous job was done and the cohesion of the SC35 is essential.
ˆB‚f÷"÷W"æf÷&ÖFöâÂFVæ—26Œ:¦æRæB×—6VÆbttend the Barcelone meeting. We really think that we have to take in account the Allan, Keld, Jim comments.
ˆ@
>™\Ý™YØ\™ËB‚Ð£ãâÖöæ—VPÐ£ãâÐ ø€4(ø
>>
>
>BˆBƒâÐ£Q"€è½Ý¹•ÈµÍŒÌÕÝœÅ½U¸µÍÑ¹½Éœmµ„ilto:owner-sc35wg1@open-s td.org] De la part de ALB
>[€voyé : samedi 25 janvier 2014 14:41
ˆ0àˆÙ[Ù[^.com; Jee-In Kim
>> Cc : Carter, James; Khalid CHOUKRI; [email-masked]<mailto:[email-masked]>; [email-masked]<mailto:[email-masked]>; [email-masked]<mailto:[email-masked]>
>Øš™]ˆ
ÐÌÍUÑÌKNJH'Nˆ˜YAgenda - JTC1/SC35/WG1 meeting - Barcelona, week of 10 February 2014
>BˆHŒMLKLH0èŒMËÙ[Ù[^˜Àom écrit:
>>X\ˆ[BƒãâÐ øø$…±Í¼ÍÕA½ÉÐ±…¥¸œs propositions.
ˆBƒãâ'æ÷FRF†BF†Rtw2vÆÂ†fP resolutions, and that these resolutions should
>ˆ™HÀarried out bu the SC without unnessecary delay, eg. confirmed via a
>>ÐÈ]\ˆ˜[Ý\ÈÙH\ÙHÈÈÚ[ˆÙ@ run GOMs.
>>
ˆÐ[Z[—H[ˆ˜XÝY\ˆ[ÓÓ\Ë™\Àolutions were executed, we have not done letter ballots to vote on these resolutions later on.
>Bˆ]Ú[ˆa ballot was called by a resolution for a NP, CD, DIS, PDTR, etc,, this ballot was done without extra formality . This is the typical situation for most resolutions.
ˆ@
>\È\ÈH[ÜÝY™šXÚY[Ø^HÈ›ØÙYY[Z›Bˆ
ˆ[Z[ƒBˆBƒãâ&W2&Vv&G0Ð£àø-•±4(>>
‚öà Fri, Jan 24, 2014 at 07:25:28PM +0900, Jee-In Kim wrote:
‚FV"ÆÂ£ãàø€4(ø>> I also support Alain's position and interpretation.
‚Ð£ãàø]"É•…±±ä¹••„ÍÐrong cooperation between WG's in SC35.
>ˆ›Üˆ^[\K we received a lot of valuable comments from experts in all WG's in SC35 to the 30113 series of gesture interfaces. That seems to me one of the great advantages of the GOM model. I expect that we need more cooperation in the future.
>>ˆBƒãâÇ6òÂvR6â&RfW''&öGV7F—fRv—F‚F€e GOM model while relieving burdens and expenses of the secretariat. This seems a very practical solution to me.
>>ˆBƒãâ&W7B£àøø)•"µ%¸-¥´€¡¥A…¤4(ø>>
‚#14. 1. 24. Ïóòs£b$6'FW"Â¦ÖW2"Æ6'FW$72çW66²æ0a> ??ÏàÐ£ãàø€4(ø>>H™[Y]™H]\™H\™H˜\š[Ý\À interpretations of what we discussed. Alain definitely discussed the GOM model as a means of meeting without plenary in the Saskatoon discussions. Given the context of history within SC35, many participants have a valid expectation that that was what was agreed to.
>‚Ð£ãàøøI•œards, Jim
ƒâg&öÓ¢¶†Æ­B4„õTµ$'¶6†÷V·&"VÆFæ÷&uÐÐ
>‚6VçC¢#B¦çV''#B3£3PÐ£ãàøøQ¼è
…ÉÑ•È°)…´es; ALB; [email-masked]<mailto:[email-masked]>
>‚63¢†Æ—[email-masked]<mailto:[email-masked]>; [email-masked]<mailto:[email-masked]>
ƒâ7V&¦V7C¢e: (SC35WG1.492) Draft Agenda - JTC1/SC35/WG1 meeting - Barcelona, week of 10 February 2014
>>ˆBƒãàø!¤)¥´4
>‚Ð£ãàøøQ¡¥Ì¥ÌÝ¡…ÐÝ"'¥ÍÕÍÍ•…±°Ñ½•Ñ¡•È‰½Ðh in Busan and Saskatoon and, after the discussions, I announced that we are heading towards an annual plenary meeting with, as many as required, technical meetings.
€> The agreement was that we have our plenaries in the summer (end of June, early July) and a technical one in February this time.
ƒâÐ£àøø Philippe:  Could you please circulate the info on the February meeting
ƒâÐ£à>>Bƒãâ&W7B&Vv&G2FòÆÂ£àøø Khalid
>>ˆB€>>ˆØ\\‹˜[Y\ÈÜ›ÝKÛˆÌKÌŒMÎƒBƒãd€strongly agree with Alain that the GOM model that we have historically used works well to promote the well being and success of SC35 and that to do less would be to invite major problems in the working and success of SC35.
€>>
ƒãâ&Vv&G2Â¦ÐÐ øø>> ________________________________
>ƒâg&öÓ¢Ä"¶Æ&öävÖ­¦6öÕÐÐ øø>> Sent: 23 January 2014 08:25
ƒãâFó¢¶†Æ­B4„õTµ$"[email-masked]<mailto:[email-masked]>
>>‚63¢†Æ—RæÖvæ&÷66ôfæ÷"æ÷ g; [email-masked]<mailto:[email-masked]>; Carter, James
ƒãâ7V&¦V0t: Re: (SC35WG1.492) Draft Agenda - JTC1/SC35/WG1 meeting - Barcelona, week of 10 February 2014
>ƒâÐ£àøø> Khalid,
ƒãâÐ øø>> OK, I updated the timeframe of the agenda (see attached file, 2nd draft agenda).
>ƒâÐ
>ƒâ†÷vWfW"'F†æ²F†BF†W&R6†÷VÆB&RÒÒ2vR†`e always done -- a P plenary session at the end to have consolidated resolutions, not dispersed resolutions in each WG (AFNOR used to call such a meeting a GOM [General Orientation Meeting, a term invented by them for meetings where the secretariat was absent, a situation with which we got used to and to which we adapted as it seemed the best solution in this case] when it was not a formal Plenary). Otherwise I strongly fear that SC35 will be weakened, disorganized, and incoherent between formal plenaries (we need to be sure that decisions will be cared about and focused in a central point). The sentiment of "belonging" will also vanish, and groups will feel autonomous (let's then form a different SC !) or not cared about (one situation or the other, not much in between). The net result, imho, will be that interest in attendance could go down. That is my experience of JTC1      meetings since more than a quarter century.
>>‚Ð£ãàøø We have always have consolidated resolutions since the creation of SC35 in 1999 (SC35 was created by JTC1 at its Rio de Janeiro Plenary in January 1999, I was there -- out of JTC1/WG5, itself out of JTC1/SC18/WG9). This strenghtened SC35 all the time, making it a coherent body. When the secretary was not there, I was acting as resolution secretary (no problem in my doing so again, and many other people could also do so -- in any way I can still volunteer if this is a problem).
>ƒâÐ£àøø> About future meetings, I think that we must have strong hints (at least a firm date and a firm continent, ideally a firm country) for 18 months in advance (funds planning is typically done -- depending on countries -- on a civil year, from January to December or from another month up to the next eleven months over spanning civil years [in Canada as a case in point from April to March of the next civil year). In absence of those strong hints, funds have more chances not to be sufficiently available, which is also very much detrimental to sustainable attendance.
>>‚Ð£ãàøø I'm pretty sure that other convenors will agree with me. If not, I'm ready to modestly say I have a dissident view and would then accept the views of the majority.
>ƒâÐ£àøø> Alain
>>‚õõõõõõõõõõõõõõõõõõõõõõõõõõõõõõõõõõõõõõðÐ£ãàøø Le 2014-01-23 à 06:13, Khalid CHOUKRI a écrit :
>ƒâÐ
>ƒâ†'Æ­àÐ£ãàøø
>>‚2w&VVBB÷W"66¶@oon meeting there will be no "Plenary" sessions per see in Barcelona,
ƒãâÐ øø>> I hope to join the group and introduce the activities of the week but this could be an informal introduction on Monday morning , Philippe is looking at that and this should not last more than 30mn;
>ƒâÐ£àøø> The same decision impacts the closing session (there will be no closing meeting and hence no resolution session), I hope to be able to attend a general gathering (may be on Thursday) to wrap up and see how we move forward with respect to the July meeting.
>ƒâÐ£à>>ˆ™YØ\™[™È[Ý\ˆ][HÛˆ]\™HYY][™ÜÈHÝYÙÙ\ÝÈleave this out unless you would like to get the participants desiderata (and hopefully Philippe will circulate the invitation from our Chinese partners before Barcelona)
>>‚Ð£ãàøø thanks again and best wishes to all for a successful meeting in Barcelona
>ƒâÐ£àøø> Khalid
>ƒâÐ£àøø> P.S. Philippe: could you please update the SC35 action list, in particular with the information you got from Spain, thanks
>>‚Ð£ãàøø
>>‚Æ­à LaBontï°¯HÜ›ÝKÛˆŒ‹ÌKÌŒMNŒŽNƒBƒãàøM•"…ÑÐached file. Please indicate omissions, errors, if any, and suggest other areas of concerns.
>>‚Ð£ãàøø Any other remark also welcome.
>>‚Ð£ãàøø Alain LaBonté, Convenor, JTC1/SC35/WQG1
>ƒâ\:&V0Ð øø>>
€>> ---
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>ƒâÐ£àøø> Khalid Choukri
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>[šÈ[ÝKƒBˆB‚Ð£âÐ£âÒÒÐ €4(> Yoshikazu SEKI, Ph.D.
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