JTC1/SC22/WG14 N986
Minutes for ISO/JTC1/SC22/WG14 and INCITS J11
Document WG14/N973
15-19 April 2002
Curacao, Netherlands Antilles
1. Opening activities
1.1 Opening Comments
Randy Marques, our host, extended a warm welcome to Curacao (and cautioned
us about the tropical sun). Instructions were given for gaining web, news,
and email access.
1.2 Introduction of Participants/Roll Call
United States (J11)
John Benito, Farance Inc. (Convener)
Douglas Walls, Sun (HOD)
John Parks, Intel
Clark Nelson, Intel (non-voting)
Fred Tydeman, Tydeman Consulting
Randy Meyers, Silverhill Systems
Raymond Mak, IBM
Jeff Muller, Oracle
David Keaton, Self
Barry Hedquist, Perennial
PJ Plauger, Dinkumware
Tana Plauger, Dinkumware (non-voting)
Tom Plum, Plum-Hall
Canada
Raymond Mak, IBM (HOD)
Walter Banks, ByteCraft
UK
Francis Glassborow, Self (HOD)
Denmark
Allan Frederiksen, Nokia
Jan Kristoffersen, RAMTEX (HOD)
Netherlands
Randy Marques, Atos Origin
Willem Wakker, ACE (HOD)
Germany
Nobuyoshi Mori (Nobu), SAP (HOD)
Norway
Keld Simonsen, RAP (HOD)
1.3 Selection of Meeting Chair
John Benito, Chair
John Parks, Secretary
1.4 Procedures for this Meeting
Everyone was encouraged to participate (and participate in straw votes),
regardless of voting status. For formal votes, we would vote as
countries.
1.5 Approval of Previous Minutes (N960)
Approved without objection. Will get new document number and be made
public.
1.6 Review of Action Items and Resolutions
The following action items are now CLOSED
o Gwyn: Rationale words for 6.2.6.1 trap representations
o Tydeman: Rationale words for 6.3.1.6 complex types
o Tydeman: Rationale words for 6.3.1.7 real and complex
o Jones: Rationale words for 6.9.2 External object definitions -
tentative definition
o Jones: Rationale words for 6.11.(1,2,3,4,7,8,9) Future directions -
array parameters removed
o Tydeman: Rationale words for 7.12 Need list of new math (as of C99)
functions
o Benito/Thomas: Rationale words for 7.12 Redo Jim Thomas's words on
math, e.g., 'this draft', 'that draft'
o Tydeman: Rationale words for 7.12.14 FP compare
o Tydeman: Signaling NaN paper
o Benito: explain blue line in DRs; add (and explain) more states of
DRs in DR log
o Benito: DR 273 __STDC_ISO_10646__
o Kristoffersen: new example for annex D (IOHW)
o Wakker: prepare disposition of comments document
o Benito: determine what to do about registering C locale
The following action items are still OPEN
o Benito: C99 Time issues and WG15
o Mak: Sequence points paper in TR format (Tydeman, Seymour, Seebach,
Meyers will review/help)
Needs review comments, will distribute paper after meeting.
o Meyers: write paper based upon DR 219
o Meyers: review DR 230
o Meyers: Rationale words for 6.3.2.1 rvalue array type
Randy wasn't sure.
o Gwyn: Rationale words for 7.1 General library overview on const
o Gwyn: Rationale words for 7.18.1.5 Greatest-width integer types
o Meyers: DR 230 paper
o Gwyn: DR 274 alternate wording
o Benito/Plauger: DR 224 response on INFINITE
1.7 Approval of Agenda (N967)
Simonsen: requests time (30 min) to discuss C locale, Tues AM, first thing
Walls: requests to change US TAG meeting to Wed afternoon
Tydeman: signaling NaN paper, do that in liaison section
Glassborow: requests time to talk about UK-hosted meeting
1.8 Distribution of New Documents
None.
1.9 Information on Next Meetings
1) October, 2002 -- Santa Cruz, CA
hosts: Perennial and Dinkumware
dates: 10/14 (for C) 10/20 (for C++)
hotel: West Coast Santa Cruz Hotel (former Dream Inn)
make reservations directly with hotel
don't have to stay at Inn, there are B&Bs, etc. nearby
room rate is good, all rooms have ocean view
$125/night single or double, $135 triple, $145 quad
rate will stretch to one or the other weekend
2) April, 2003 -- Oxford, UK
host: UK
dates 3/31 (for C), 4/7 for C++)
hotel: Holiday Inn (just outside ring road)
entirely rebuilt, excellent conference center,
good internet connections
$145/room (110 pounds) at current exchange rate, includes tax and
full breakfast
trying to negotiate lower room rates
Travelodge next door, 70 pounds/night, no breakfast
ACCU Spring conference will be there also
looking for presenter(s)
sponsorship: ACCU and 2 private sponsors (including Francis Glassborow)
co-sponsor would be very welcome, free spot at the conference
Plum: large companies that do business in UK may want to consider
bus service, train service, easy to get to/from London and Oxford
3) October, 2003 -- Kona, Hawaii
host: Plum-Hall
preliminary dates: 10/15-10/21 (for C), 10/20 (for C++), 2 days overlap
the Iron Man Triathlon hotel blackout period makes it difficult to
begin on 10/13
Wakker: 2 mid-week travel days may be objectionable
could consider shorter meeting
4) April 2004 -- Norway (possibly Oslo)
5) October 2004 -- searching for North American host
1.10 Identification of national bodies
Canada
Denmark
Germany
Netherlands
Norway
United Kingdom
USA
1.11 Identification of J11 voting members
11 voting members present, a quorum.
2. Rationale Editors report (Benito)
Benito doesn't have new doc for this meeting
with help from Jones and Tydeman, got everything into doc that was supposed
to go into doc (from Redmond meeting)
problems with index, Microsoft Word issues, removed index style, Benito
now producing another one
that's ONLY issue left with Rationale
Benito will give doc number and post to web once the index problems are
resolved
Plum
why not get rid of index?
Benito
rumors are that somebody wants to publish it with all of C99 and first
set of defect reports
Tydeman
would it be worthwhile to publish to website without index?
[AI] Benito: will post to website without index
[AI] Glassborow: volunteer to take care of index
3. TR Status Report (ISO/IEC WDTR 18037.2, WG14 N968, Wakker)
this is the latest version of the TR
most important changes: fixed-point arithmetic and section that details
exact changes to the C99 Standard
need more comments on doc (it's been too quiet)
hope to have decision on next ballot by the end of this meeting
Plum: C++ liaison issues
historical perspective: we didn't define a compatibility header to
facilitate the use of complex in both languages; that issue is still
being hotly discussed on the C++ side
if we try to define THE compatibility header in this case, however,
we've got no chance to make it compatible with local conventions (which
are suited to local needs)
an existent proof would be nice but neither committee should define the
header
Glassborow
until you do existence proof, you don't know it's possible
who should do it is difficult problem
we shouldn't avoid issue
a template-like syntax might help
Wakker
philosophy was to create basic types, implementations can provide
mappings to more locally palatable names
Annex G is informative, not normative, it only suggests how implementors
might provide compatibility C/C++
Meyers
very little work by C and C++ committees would have gone a LONG way
toward making life easier for implementors and users
Plum
would be good to show example of a compatibility header in the document
(including values)
C0X implementation has efficiency edge on C++ because it has REAL fixed
point values, probably not a big deal
Glassborow
when either language makes future changes, if you had a compatibility
header you would have something to regression test against
Plum
before the decision about whether header is normative or informative is
made, we need header
Plauger
there are regrettable incompatibilities between C/C++ complex but that
case is overstated, Dinkumware has existence proof of headers that
reconcile library complex differences
Dinkumware will soon begin work on fixed-point libraries, not terribly
worried about incompatibilities
Benito -- next ballot on this is technical
next step is to move on to draft status
at end of week -- are we ready to move this forward?
if we do NOT move this to draft status after this meeting, that will
REALLY push this out
if we get this out from this meeting, we can move on
4. Liaison activities
4.1 J11 (Meyers)
nothing much to report
NCITS has become INCITS (International NCITS)
Tana Plauger
this may be difficult for small companies since they can be
over-dominated on international committees
Plum
small corporations are probably already under-represented in all countries
US domiciled corporations can go to individual US TAGs
natural conflict -- should US standards committees always push US point
of view OR be seen as participating in international efforts
4.2 WG14 (Benito)
convenership open, Benito will volunteer again if there are no objections
or volunteers
plenary in August in Finland, Benito will attend
new work item vote failed (item 5, discussed later)
4.3 J16/WG21 (Plum)
C/C++ compatibility issue is flaring up again
there are process issues and technical issues, Plum wants to address
process issues and leave technical to Meyers
Plum suggested in Redmond that to improve things, we should work within
ISO procedures, not try to create new special arrangements
proposal: let's encourage as many companies as possible to participate
in both committees (and as liaisons)
WG21 designated 7 liaisons from WG21->WG14 (that was also done for
WG14->WG21 and those names were listed in the WG21 minutes)
Tana Plauger
if you are designated as a liaison are you automatically part of the
other group?
Plum
no, you must have some interest and expertise in the other language
liaisons
Dinkumware and Intel want to be added as liaisons
Perennial is already on the list
Benito is now off the liaison list
4.4 WG15 (POSIX) (Simonsen)
new revision
IEEE and OpenGroup have voted affirmatively (the ISO vote must do so
also before this can become FDIS)
4.5 WG20 (I18N) (Simonsen)
there was a proposal to disband this group, it was resolved/defeated in
SC22 though the vote was close
Benito
is there another disband proposal on the table?
Simonsen
no knowledge of that
there are a number of standards being considered
1) updated repertoire of 10646 (Unicode), ballot ended 4/14
2) TR 14652, ballot ends middle of May
3) API standard, about to be disbanded, not progressing
changed from language independent spec to spec that it bound to C,
maybe it should be dealt with in C Committee?
4) tech report on design of programming languages
WG14 has used character descriptions
about to go out to ballot (next few weeks)
Plum
SC22 plenary talked about politics
SC2 has close working relationship with Unicode Consortium
strong feeling at ISO that we want just one place (committee) where
identifiers are defined
inconsistency -- Java uses Unicode, C++ and C point to different versions
of WG20 document which are inconsistent with Unicode
there is the "checks and balances" argument -- SC22 is court of last
resort for small companies and countries
would like to see document that explains why particular characters that
aren't in Unicode really need to be considered
it would be good if we stopped pointing to WG20 documents
Simonsen
the history is that Unicode picked up WG20 character list work
WG20 and Unicode Technical Committee cooperate (UTC is WG20 liaison)
Unicode is soldier of big American firms, other cultures need clout
Nobu (who is also on Unicode committee)
small differences, lists are synchronized, Unicode is not just American
corporations, they support WG20's work
Glassborow
standards are about portability
our expertise is in language design, not character sets, we should confine
ourselves to language design
Nobu
C# may soon become ISO language, 16 bit characters, we should strive
for compatibility there
4.6 WG11 (Wakker)
the language independent arithmetic ballot succeeded
Frank Farance taking lead in revising data types
4.7 Other Liaison Activities
4.7.1 Tydeman: signaling NaN paper
the paper is up on the website
he has had feedback from Nick Maclaren and a trial implementation
will remove problem section and repost, will eventually be rewritten
[AI] Tydeman: give Simonsen revised document, Benito and Keaton will
also review
4.7.2 Changes to WG21 Liaisons
remove Benito
add Dinkumware and Intel
need leader
Plum is convener and so cannot, may drop convenership in October and
then might consider it
Francis Glassborow will do it, if only for a short time
4.7.3 Other Liaison Issues
Simonsen
SC22 plenary in August, will discuss char set issues (including Unicode)
will we prepare input for that meeting?
Benito
add agenda time to discuss WG14 input to SC22 plenary tomorrow morning
after C locale conversation
Benito will attend plenary to represent WG14
Simonsen
there are 3 J11 ballots pending (DIS C#, DIS TLI, TR TLI), they end in
middle of July, there is a ballot resolution meeting end of September
in Hawaii
Walls
there were very few comments on C# (doc edited by Rex Jaeschke) and the
review period is now over
Plum
US TAG part of J11 gets the opportunity to comment on language docs
that come through, it is strongly encouraged to form an opinion, only
several of the committee members might have any interest or knowledge
of the subject matter, C++ refused to take a stance and instead voted
to abstain
Benito
that process is clearly broken
------------------------- lunch (sponsored by ACE) -------------------------
5. SC22 N3356 (Benito)
the ballot for this new work item failed
in Redmond we had 6 countries interested in this, only 3 voted for it and
we need 5 to continue this work
what does it mean for a country to say that a work item should be pursued
but they don't want to participate?
Canada and the Netherlands think they probably should have voted for this
hopefully, we can straighten out the vote this week
let's talk about this work item this week anyway
Glassborow
doesn't understand the UK vote and nobody consulted him
doesn't want UK to be left out of it
Wakker
the corrected Dutch vote will be issued in the next day or two
6. Defect report status (Benito)
Benito made all of the changes that were requested of him
described terms (closed, closed published, closed with date, review, open)
Simonsen
questions methodology
there was consensus agreement that Benito followed agreed upon process
defect reports are on the web, not in mailing
7. ISO/IEC WDTR 18037 Editors report (Wakker)
type names have changed
new type conversion rules (2.1.4)
r, q, h for constants and formatted I/O (capital for unsigned versions)
for fract, accum, short variants
open issue: wide string versions, are they necessary?
asked committee for feedback on whether the format of section 2.2
(detailed changes to the C Standard) is reasonable
are there machines where sizes of accum/fract don't map to size of
integers? yes.
Keaton
in past meetings it was agreed that there are some machines that simply
can't be supported by this model, that's OK since this will work for
a large class of machines
asked committee to please read and review
annex G on C++ compatibility
annex F on functionality not included in this TR
8. Additional character types (N969)(Nobu)
the paper is mostly a summary of the WG14 reflector discussion on the
SAP proposal to add a UTF-16 character type to C/C++
Plauger
many of the proposed solutions are horrible, including anything that
wires UTF-16 into the C Standard, it only has currency now because
Java chose it
biggest lapse we made in C89 was to provide little/no guidance on wide
character mapping
proposes adding char16_t and char32_t
solves user problem that we don't know what wchar_t is going to give us
likes idea of generalizing string literals as mechanism for static
initialization
would like us to define where users can change wide char representations
within their code
Plum
the conjecture that UTF-16 was chosen because of Java is not right, it's
really the sweet spot for databases and codes that large corporations
are trying to standardize on (convenience versus efficiency tradeoff),
8-bit is too short, 32-bit takes too much space
we've got constituencies asking us for 16-bit
the original request was for a type whose size was evident from its
name and whose representation was the approved ISO-blessed Unicode
UTF-8 and UTF-16 are stateful encodings, UTF-32 is not
we're really extending our pioneering work that allows users to prepend
'L' on string
certain operations can only be defined on "strings" not individual chars
we can't eliminate individual char processing methods but we want to
restrict its use as much as possible (hopefully, just to library)
Simonsen
there is a business need for us to support UTF-16
UTF-32 is a tainted term, a Unicode-only term, UCS-4 is more politically
correct
wants to get rid of 'L' at end of strings because they're ugly
agrees with Plum that we should start looking at "strings" as basic unit
of operation
Benito
paper was meant to be high-level summary, no divisive
Mak
there is no need for UTF-32 (though there is need UTF-16)
C model is that wchar_t is fixed width encoding
proposal is for 16-bit, variable width encoding (for efficiency)
optimum length seems to be 16 bits
if we want to be more general, let's define a 16-bit type that can map
to more than just UTF-16
we should decouple wchar_t and the new data type to prevent user problems
mixing objects with those types
Plum
programmers that need UTF-16 strings need them now (and have needed
them for several years) and have responded to that need by
1) writing text-to-text preprocessors, and
2) hacking gcc internally
compiler solution would eliminate the need for these workarounds
our TR charter included investigation for ongoing library work, not
to define new APIs (charter: data type, initializer, APIs)
if we add a 32-bit type, we may encourage programmers to use it as their
fundamental type and that's not what the Unicode Consortium is
recommending (they are recommending UTF-16)
Nobu
agrees that we don't need UTF-8 (redundant)
if majority think UTF-32 is unnecessary (or undesirable) he will go
along with that
endianness is not in proposal
Glassborow
data types that include state information are complicated to handle
(UTF-32 would be required to get rid of state info)
Plauger
if this was a good idea somebody would have implemented it
doesn't like principle of somebody convincing committee to do something
so we can see if it's a good idea...
Simonsen
UTF-16 is not just Unicode, it's an ISO standard
we should not do quick fix, we'll have to live with this for years
Meyers
C committee was wise to leave char set stuff out of language
there seems to be strong need to 16-bit equivalent to char and it would
probably be wise to make it generic
Plum
quality-of-implementation question: C++ will need to overload on array
of UTF-16
it is hopeless to try for "stateless" code points
UTF-32 entity is a "code point" (character)
implementations must deal with combining code points (ordering and
adjacency matter) so they cannot be entirely "stateless"
Unicode defines "canonical sequence" of code points so they can be
manipulated
it is not necessary for code points to encode endianness
everything that we are discussing deals with array of 16-bit int type,
it is an int type, there is only one endianness, it's the type that is
supported on this platform, it is thus not an issue on this platform,
just for interchanging data across platforms (on web), within same
machine family, use native endianness
endianness is data interchange problem (library vendor)
there is existing practice
the installed bases of .NET and XML and Java are existing practice,
they represent a sizeable market
we are not withdrawing support for traditional C char/library methods
(traditional POSIX narrow/wide char model), this proposal simply adds
support for a new market
we are standardising another character in front of string literals, if
another community needs another encoding standardised they should
consider the door open to add yet another letter
Nobu
other 16-bit encodings (the ones he knows about) are just historical,
they have been replaced by Unicode
Walls
vendors have standardised on char and wchar_t
we have customers begging us for 16-bit Unicode, we tried to convince
them otherwise, they wouldn't go away, we said that we'd work with
them on the Standards committee
there is more pressure for this for C than for C++
Simonsen
Unicode has something like 10 normalization forms, to canonically
represent a string (10646 has just one)
Plum
the real problem is getting from initializer double-quotes to array of
16-bit ints, that's what cannot be done without a preprocessor
Simonsen
idea: instead of a new char type, offer them a string type
Plauger
let's NOT wire UTF-16 into C, let's make it possible but not necessary
if the market forces make it happen, so be it
does NOT accept premise that we've finally gotten characters right
------------------------- break -------------------------
Nelson
UTF-16 is not a valid wchar_t encoding, UTF-32 is not valid either
because it is not really stateless
Plauger
"grapheme clusters"
SC22 passed a resolution a decade ago that said that language groups do
not need to treat combining characters
Plum
there are combining characters in spoken languages, so even if your
char set does not use them, the language itself might (addressing
Nelson's point about UTF-32 not being stateless either)
Plauger
the problem with processing UTF-16 as chars is embedded nulls
Nobu
problem with wchar_t is that it is historically implementation-dependent
can we summarize the conversation in such a way that we can move the
document forward? Do we perhaps agree that
1) UTF-8 is not necessary
2) we should create UTF-16 data type
3) we should create UTF-32 data type
Simonsen
UTF-32 is not necessary
a more generalized approach would be better, one that includes information
about which encoding, etc.
doesn't want to call out specific standard
Meyers
you can consider UTF-8 as multibyte type, store in char
why isn't UTF-8 desirable?
Mak
UTF-8 is not being asked for
UTF-32 is not required either
we should focus on just what's missing in the C standard - the
translation of UTF-16 literals (which isn't now possible)
Plum
let's take straw votes and then move on from there
there won't unanimity in any case
proposal: we should consider 2.1 with "some" string literal prefix and
not including UTF-32 (2.2)
Plauger
what would make Sun happy?
Nelson
is it important to have wide-string literals and UTF-16 in the same
translation unit?
Nobu
no, there are technical problems with that
Plauger
do we really need more than 2 char encodings?
wouldn't customers be happy if the platform just made wchar_t 16-bit?
Walls
no, customer does not want that
they ship their own library
Simonsen
iconv can solve problem ad hoc
Plauger
there are any number of ad hoc solutions, the question is what's the
nicest thing to do to the C Standard
Nobu
what would be the minimal approach to make customer happy?
1) compound literals
2) new minimum approach
3) 1 or 2 new data types
Plum
argues for 2.1 proposal since C++ doesn't have compound literals
compound literals happen at the wrong phase of translation
David Keaton
compound literal approach spreads character set translation across
multiple phases of translation (they wouldn't be entirely lexical)
proposal that we take a straw vote on the concepts, not the specifics
of the approaches described in the paper - are you in favor of
pursuing an approach along the lines of...
Walls
suggests that we all reread the paper
straw vote first thing tomorrow morning
Mak
let's separate 2.4a/2.4b so that we can separate out the 32-bit type
========================= adjourn for day =========================
Tuesday, April 16, 2002
continuation of discussion about N969 and the possible addition of
new character types to the C language
-------------------------------------------------------------------
Plum
2.1 is what the Unicode Technical Committee originally requested, 2.2 is
an extension of that (thinking that UTF-32 might be needed someday),
the rest are afterthoughts
everything after 2.3 tells the Unicode Technical Committee that we don't
want to do what they're asking for (i.e. create a data type that is
exactly UTF-16), they are just alternative ways to say "no"
Simonsen
there are other requests than just this one from the Unicode Technical
Committee
the Norwegian member body may/will propose that we have more
portable/generic literals
Benito
let's not complicate vote
let's deal with votes on this paper then move forward
there is no other paper on the agenda about longer char types
Walls
some of the other proposals are being asked for (2.4 in particular)
selectable by compile-time option (for some character set other than
UTF-16)
Plum
what's the marketplace demanding (other than UTF-16)
Walls
"other" character sets
Nobu
2.1 is the minimum approach
the Unicode Technical Committee would be happy with it
Plauger
this isn't simple issue of handling a request from another body, this is
a long-standing and controversial issue
now that UTF-16 has been raised, it is absolutely appropriate to raise
other alternatives at this time
it is important to address the issue about switching between wide char
encodings
this vote is just preliminary step towards addressing these issues
Glassborow
these proposals raise compatibility issues with C++
doesn't like typedef to introduce new data types - if we want new data
types we should introduce data types
we shouldn't do anything without consulting WG21
Mak
UCS2 can already be handled in implementations by defining wchar_t
(since it's fixed-width) to be 16 bits
you can't do that for UTF-16 since it's variable-width
Plum
proper C++ solution would be to allow specification of underlying type
of enum (like you can do in C#)
Glassborow
problem with all these solutions is that they are creating arithmetic types
for object that are not arithmetic
------------------------------------------------
[straw vote] on additional character types (N969)
------------------------------------------------
1) who is in favor of something along the lines of 2.1?
in favor 10
opposed 7
abstain 4
2) who is in favor of something along the lines of 2.2 (as an
addition to 2.1)
in favor 0
opposed 12
abstain 8
3) who is in favor of something along the lines of 2.3?
in favor 0
opposed 12
abstain 8
4) who is in favor of something along the lines of 2.4 for char16_t?
in favor 6
opposed 2
abstain 13
5) who is in favor of something along the lines of 2.4 for char32_t?
in favor 2
opposed 7
abstain 12
6) who is in favor of something along the lines of 2.5 for 16-bit?
in favor 3
opposed 1
abstain 17
7) who is in favor of something along the lines of 2.5 for 32-bit?
in favor 1
opposed 6
abstain 14
8) who is in favor of something along the lines of 2.6?
in favor 0
opposed 11
abstain 10
9) who is in favor of something along the lines of 2.7?
in favor 0
opposed 12
abstain 9
10) none of the above (do something different)
in favor 6
opposed (I want one of the above) 6
abstain 9
Benito
the committee has already said it wants to do something about this
(from Redmond meeting) and it has already been communicated to Unicode
technical committee
Nobu
a lot of people seem to favor a different approach
wish those people who had spoken up earlier
Benito
calls for Simonsen to get paper in post-Curacao mailing that might
outline a different approach
to move forward, we need these other approaches spelled out
Plauger
put myself in category of "asleep at the wheel" busy providing stop-gap
solutions at Dinkumware
Benito
deadlines for mailings are generous and can be flexible
the deadline is usually 4 weeks after the meeting but that can be extended
9.0 Registering C Locale (Benito)
Benito was asked to register C locale (London 1999 meeting) and he sent
doc to SC22
there was a ballot, ballot comments, Benito tried to answer them
we need to finish resolving comments
doc N3236 (at SC22 website)
SC22 decided that WG15 should answer 2 of the questions (that hasn't
happened)
Simonsen
believes that we are responsible for answering all of them
Benito
in Redmond, there was discussion about whether we want to register this
locale at all
do we want to register the locale?
if we do, let's resolve the comments and it's done
Plauger
in favor of registering it
it fills in some of the gaps from our original C locale description
Mak
does registering locale mean POSIX implementations or ALL implementations
must conform?
it would be difficult for EBCDIC to conform
Plauger
C implementations that don't conform to POSIX need not conform to this
C locale requirement
this would only apply slightly more pressure to conform
Plum
specifically applies only to POSIX conforming implementations
needs to be documented as such or there will be confusion
Benito
says that at the top of the document
[AI] Benito: verify that the C locale specification says that it
applies only to POSIX conforming implementations
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
[straw vote] should we continue with this registration of the C locale?
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
in favor 17
opposed 1
abstain 2
[AI] Benito: circulate his preliminary answers to ballot concerns to a
few people (Wakker, Plauger, Simonsen, Hedquist), will put in post-Curacao
mailing, will forward to SC22
10. Character set ad hoc at the SC22 plenary (Benito)
Benito plans to attend plenary
is there anything that WG14 wants him to talk about there?
Simonsen
should we support 10646 Unicode? yes.
should we have some means of support for UTF-16? yes.
should continue to support other char sets?
Plum
we've got a sub-optimal way of working now, SC2 and Unicode are not
going away no matter what SC22 does, wherever possible our standards
should point to Unicode and merely point out where they are wrong
right now we have 2 moving targets, theirs and ours
Nobu
hopes everybody will give better support to Unicode standards, that is
what market needs
Simonsen
Unicode has a lot of expertise and they should have their say
SC22 is appropriate counterpart with slightly different focus
it is good to have forum within ISO that coordinates and cooperates
with Unicode Technical Committee
ISO does API work and strings work that is not done in Unicode
WG20 definitions are "almost same" as Unicode
Plum
eventually the C++ annex on identifiers will change (when everything
settles down); there are 2 possible ways it might change
1) change C++ to adopt the C approach to upward superset-ability
(an implementation can support more identifier chars than the min)
2) adopt the rule that a character is an identifier character if either
it appears on the WG20 list OR the Unicode list (union of 2 lists)
Simonsen
stability is important, Unicode updates very frequently
Glassborow
purpose of standards is portability
extended identifiers go against that
is is unfortunate that C is written in language that is so much like
English
readability is important but it harms portability
Plum
do any vendors/customer bases use extended identifiers?
moving target is part of the problem
every few months when Unicode adds a new script implementors cannot
afford to keep modifying their lexing algorithm
we could probably make a list of all non-identifier chars, then
implementors could choose to make ALL others chars legal ident chars
Meyers
last days of PDP-11, C compiler added support for extended Latin-1 chars
and that was very popular
others commented that they know of places that are using extended
identifiers
Simonsen
both Unicode committee and WG20 came up with positive lists (not negative
lists like Plum suggested)
WG20 discussed positive/negative list extensively; they chose positive
and he thinks that was the right decision
Nobu
well-defined negative lists would allow for better portability
Benito
summarizing - Norway is saying
1) character set independence
2) less frequent updates
------------------------- break -------------------------
Benito
Dutch vote on new work item TR has been officially recorded as "yes"
11. Break out into defect reports subgroup (12 people, led by Nelson)
and embedded TR subgroup (9 people, led by Wakker)
========================= adjourn for day =========================
Thursday, April 18, 2002, Plenary Session
12. Embedded TR discussion review (Wakker)
UK, Netherlands, and Canada have revised their ballots to say that they
wish to participate
that brings the total to 6 who wish to participate
Norway still has concerns
the subgroup went through section 2
discussed John Hauser proposal
the Annex will say that the approach being suggested is only suggested
(not mandated), the Hauser approach may prove better
Annex G (compatibility with C++)
more input from WG21 is necessary
current text gives good indication about what could be done in that area
confidence that the document is complete both textually and technically
propose that document sent out of WG14 shortly after meeting
will get minutes from subgroup scribe
Benito
how is C++ input getting solicited?
Wakker
that was not discussed explicitly
it is not yet on radar screen at WG21
Glassborow
there may be interest in WG21 if it is nurtured
will push it with WG21
Plum
we should rely on our new 8-person liaison group
Benito
time for feedback is NOW, not after we push document into draft
our document is freely available on the website
it would have been good to have their input ALREADY
Plum
in present times of diminished budgets we need to look hard at our new
work with concern towards what implementors can afford to implement
next ballot stages
move TR into official committee draft (PDTR)
final PDTR
DTR
Benito
if the ballot passes (at SC22) it will become draft technical report
Simonsen
PDTR puts SC22 member bodies in control (in some sense), WG14 can only
change through formal comment process, changes will be tracked
Glassborow
concerned that sending this to SC22 may cause problems working with WG21
(since changes will then be harder to make since control will be in the
hands of the national bodies)
Wakker
SC22 ballot only means we will track the changes better
Simonsen
after this has been sent to ballot we can only change it in response to
comments
there is no need to delay what we're doing
this ballot will tell WG21 to take this seriously
Plum
annex G is more important to WG14 than WG21, it is our document
WG14 needs to work harder on this annex
Plauger
there is still ample time for WG21 to get up to speed and give adequate
feedback on this document
Plum
would be nice to have agenda time devoted to technical content of Annex G
Glassborow
politically, it would be better to go to WG21 before rather than after
ballot
Simonsen
we have already done registration vote at SC22, this isn't the first vote
on this
-------------
[formal vote]
-------------
To instruct the WG14 convener to submit document WDTR 18037 as amended
for SC22 PDTR ballot as quickly as possible after this meeting.
J11 vote (10 present)
Benito moves, Tydeman seconds
in favor 10
opposed 0
abstain 0
WG14 (7 present)
in favor 6
opposed 1
abstain 0
13. Defect report review (Nelson)
13.1 DRs ready to close with no change to the committee recommendation
(we're recommending that these be moved to "closed")
224, 235, 238, 239, 240, 241, 242, 244, 246, 247, 248, 249, 254,
256, 258, 259, 262, 263, 264, 273, 276, 278
It was noted that the response to DR 258 could be nicer. Benito
commented that all of the responses will be reviewed and made nicer
where appropriate.
13.2 DRs in the "review" state where we want to make some kind of change
DR 237
we agree but will add footnote similar to the first bullet item in the
response that explains implications
[AI] Meyers: write footnote
DR 243
we question justification for imposing documentation requirement here
Tydeman has submitted essentially the same proposal to IEEE committee
we want to hold this until IEEE decides what to do with it
Wakker suggests that we should add response words that say that
leave in "review" state
DR 250
we think the Standard is correct (preprocessing directive includes
non-directive)
the term "preprocessing directive" should probably be italicized in
paragraph 2 (6.10)
the answer to Clive's question is "yes, it's a directive"
[AI] Meyers: write footnote
DR 252
we don't want to work on non-prototyped functions
[AI] Meyers: draft words that capture this intent (possible taken
from response to DR 255
full committee decided to "close" with these new words
DR 253
we agree with response but want to add to the response words that say
"the initializations for x and y are different" (they are different
because of paragraph 21)
full committee decided to "close" with these new words
(aside) the term "designated initializer" is never mentioned in the
Standard though it appears in the index and new features section (we use
the term "designation initializer" in the text)
DR 255
change wording to
The Committee does not wish to further refine the behavior of calls
not in the scope of prototypes. In practice, this will not be a
problem, and the Committee does not wish to define the behavior.
note the emphasis on "calls"
full committee decided to "close" with this change
DR 257
want to add "committee discussion" words that capture our thoughts on
each of these suggestions
1) we agree with him but do not believe that this is a
defect in the Standard (or a substantive problem); there is some
support for changing the example
2) takes away the "visibility rule" and we don't want to do that;
this is related to DR 236
3) we agree with him but do not think a change is warranted at
this time
[rev] we think we should consider this for a future rev of the
Standard
4) we think this should be a separate DR (and possibly a new
footnote)
[AI] Nelson: file new DR for this alone
leave in "review" state
DR 265
we think the footnote text should be changed to read
Thus on an implementation where INT_MAX is 0x7FFF and UINT_MAX is
0xFFFF, the constant 0x8000 is signed and positive within a #if
expression even though it is unsigned in translation phase 7.
full committee decided to "close" with this change
DR 269
we agree with suggested resolution
[rev] we think we should consider suggestion 2 (about unsigned types)
for a future rev of the Standard
full committee decided to "close"
DR 270
we recommend adding Rationale words similar to
It would be legal for an implementation to have wchar_t be either int
or unsigned int and wint_t be either long or unsigned long. The
suggested changes would invalidate implementations currently allowed
by the Standard that made those choices.
[AI] Tydeman: draft Rationale words that say that wchar_t does not
necessarily promote to wint_t
full committee decided to "close"
DR 271
[rev] we think we should consider this for a future rev of the Standard
full committee decided to "close"
DR 277
subcommittee was divided on whether they think the words can be misread
the way Clive suggests; they agree that if they make a change, the
first suggested rewording is best
----------------------------------------
[straw vote] should we make this change?
----------------------------------------
yes 5
no 8
Wakker
why don't we simply remove the restriction that disallows constants?
Meyers
this was an arbitrary language decision, C++ precedent is to disallow
this
Plum
wasn't necessary in C++ since you can intermingle code and decls
(which C has since adopted)
Glassborow
people are reluctant to change standard since it's costly BUT it is
also costly if the standard isn't unambiguously clear
full committee decided to "close"
13.3 DRs that were in the "open" state
DR 245
we agree with the suggestions, except that 7.21.4.3 is incorrectly listed
as 7.21.4.4
move to "review" state
DR 275
we think the macro should be defined as zero in this case (and cannot
be left undefined)
move to "review" state
DR 279
the original restriction came from Plauger and he now thinks restriction
should be removed
we recommend suggestion 2 (removing the restriction)
move to "review" state
DR 236
we did not like the suggested example in the "committee discussion"
we agreed that the Committee's original intent was to create aliasing
rules to allow optimizations based on types; unions can create
"aliases" that break this
we agreed that we wanted to fix these rules so that they can remain
useful to optimizers
we agreed that we want to move the Standard in the direction of "the
visibility of the union at the point of the reference" is what matters
[AI] Meyers and Nelson: draft changes to the aliasing rules (and the
definition of "effective type") so that optimizers can continue to
use these rules to optimize programs
Mak
the discussion focused on example 2 (unions) and we also need to
handle malloc'ed storage
Keaton
no objection to invalidating some programs (with new rules), those
programs were written in a problematic coding style (passing
function arguments that are aliased to one another)
Plauger
in favor of new rules, they will provide guidance to real programmers
trying to write correct, optimizable code
there should be a quick response that says that we don't like example
leave in "open" state
[additional discussion on DR 236 from subcommittee]
Meyers
at Digital, we took conservative approach and any union in scope
stopped optimizations (since we could look at whole compilation unit
all at once)
Walls
at Sun, there are command-line options to control aliasing assumptions
the compiler is 1-pass and so a union wouldn't prohibit optimization
unless union was seen first
Meyers
the optimization in example 2 should not be allowed and it is not
worth fixing the Standard to allow it
aliasing rules are just heuristic, these optimizations are usually
put under control of command-line switches, it is inherently unsafe
to write code like this
if we make the suggested change, we would be starting an education
process to teach people how to fix their programs and write them in
such a way that they can be optimized fully
Nelson
effective type is not a concept that is applied to unions, it is only
for dynamically allocated memory
suggestion
1) apply effective type concept to unions (e.g. assignment to a
union member has the potential for changing the effective type)
2) add new bullet to ANSI aliasing rules about "members of a visible
union type"
Meyers
another suggestion: restrict taking address of union member
Nelson
we might draft wording that touches
1) 6.5p7 if you have 2 types which are members of a visible union
type
2) 6.5p6 effective type definition
3) 6.2.6.1p7 when a value is stored into union member, other members
become indeterminate
4) 6.5.2.3p5
it was also suggested that we should put examples that we want to work
and not work in the TR
DR 219 (related to DR 236)
we think that the resolution of this DR will make no practical difference
to compiler writers
Meyers suggested saying that if the memory being copied is a partial
object then the effective type is array of char, if it is a full object
that determines the effective type
[AI] Meyers: write paper detailing this approach (for next meeting) and
argue why we should dismiss the suggested approach
leave in "open" state
14. Additional character types TR discussion review
Nobu
how/when do we decide encoding (2.1, 2.4, 2.5)?
we're now focused on 3 possible solutions (we've rejected UTF8 and UTF32)
in what direction should we go?
what shall we say to people who want to write encoding-dependent programs?
100K people are writing that kind of code at SAP
Benito
to proceed, we need to register document, then circulate, then move
it to PDTR
Simonsen
we're in early stages here, we cannot go to PDTR too quickly
Benito
Wakker's embedded C proposal took several years to move to PDTR
Plauger
is this a normative or informative change?
Simonsen
want more generic approach that would also accommodate UTF-16
Nobu
there could be a more generic approach using macros
charU => 1) char
2) wchar_t
3) char16_t
strcmpU() => strcmp()
cU("") => 1) ""
2) L""
3) u""
Simonsen
if we want to proceed along these lines we need a written proposal
Benito
[AI] Nobu: put type generic approach description on WG14 website (once
he cleans the code) and forward to Benito to put in mailing
Simonsen
WG20 document 15434 I18N API
generic API (not bound to Unicode)
reentrant (thread safe), locale, codeset, repertoire, string
supports new locale specification (14652), sort of a Posix enhancement
partially implemented in gnu compiler
Nobu
ICU API is already widely used
Simonsen
ICU is bound to Unicode
15434 is also widely used (in gnu compiler)
Nobu
15434 has missing pieces (strcmp, etc.)
the targets of the 2 projects are different
ICU is already implemented
Simonsen
15434 is also implemented (in gnu compiler)
do we want to be generic or Unicode-bound?
assume we want to be generic (EBCDIC, etc.)
Nobu
generic approach is nicer
we should continue discussion
Keaton
we have clear committee position that we do not want to be character
set specific (in the committee DR response to allow EBCDIC)
Plum
disagrees with assertion that somebody has asked for a Unicode-only
environment
the request will not affect char or wchar_t
they are asking for a new name that would guarantee UTF-16 type
if people want more generalized 16 bit type that's fine, the proponents
of those encodings should come to us
Nelson
we have already hard-wired support for ISO 10646 into C
suggestion: we can soft-wire support for UTF-16 by defining a macro that
says whether or not the extensions are available; implementors would
NOT be required to have them
Plum
this is just a technical report, not a part of the Standard
as long as the source code can tell at compile-time whether or not
UTF-16 is supported, users could be satisfied
Keaton
likes soft-wired approach
Plum
there are complaints about wchar_t because there are no guarantees about
either its size or encoding, wchar16_t guarantees at least the size
supports use of upper and lower case u's to decorate strings
Meyers
prefers that typedef not say "utf" in it
likes u (both upper and lower), we can think of it as "Universal" and
the Unicode community can think it's "Unicode"
Keaton
we could use string creation macros and just blow off the prefix
Plum
what about adjacent string concatenation?
Mak
suggests "v" for variable-width encoding
still has reservations about 32-bit, all we need is 16-bit
Muller
prefer separate macros for char16 and UTF (guaranteed to be UTF)
Simonsen
wants more generic literals
Norwegian comments (submitted to convener and will be sent with ballot)
1) good idea to support UTF-16 in C standard
2) other encodings should be supported in portable, generic way
3) cultural conventions registry should be included
4) should be possible to create character constants in different encodings
5) should be possible to determine whether or not something is really a
constant or something intended for translation
6) WG20 should be consulted
Norwegian comments mailed to WG14 reflector
Nelson
comments 3 and 4 suggests that there should be syntax for specifying
meta information about strings
Simonsen
Norwegian comments do not suggest that implementations need to support
lots of encodings
Mak
would implementations be required to support more than one encoding in
the same compilation?
Simonsen
supporting more than one kind of string at the same time would be useful
Plum
by adding string prefix, we would make clear how other encodings could
also be added as extensions
C++ library group has been playing with how to extend string literals
so that they could be user-defined encodings
in Nobu's mid-preprocessor, it is important to know the context in
which the string appears; if initializer, for instance, it must
create static array with hex constants
Nobu
we MUST support UTF-16!
SAP and C# people are demanding it
Tydeman
could use u followed by number and then pragmas to switch between
16-bit encodings
Meyers
it would be rare for people to need more than one encoding in the same
compilation unit
people don't complain about this now, codes that require different
character sets are simply compiled separately
not a big deal to support more than one encoding at the same time, it
could be done with techniques similar to the locale-changing techniques
we have now (setlocale)
we could use #pragmas to establish "current" locale
Plum
people who are asking for this TR were hoping that it could be done
quickly, Norway 2-5 suggest much more complex work
we should consider possibility that if we add char32_t that it is
defined to be ISO 10646 encoding
people cannot use wchar_t for that purpose today because it isn't
guaranteed to be 16 bits (and isn't on Microsoft)
Simonsen
Norway simply wants better generic support
should that be a separate TR?
Meyers
making this char set independent would not necessarily be that much
of a burden
Benito
if we decide we want to do another TR to address the API issues that
would need to wait (we're small group)
the way this new work item is written, we could write a very small TR to
handle char issues and then a much larger TR to handle the API issues
Meyers
if we set good direction, implementations need not wait for the
standardization process
Simonsen
Norway doesn't feel strongly about point 6, taking this to WG20
Nobu
I18N API was rejected elsewhere and now it's simply been shifted to WG14
Wakker
UTF-16 is the primary issue
would like to see more flexible mechanism, that's a more difficult task
and will take more time
WG14 is not appropriate place to do I18N API work
Kristoffersen
favors a more generic approach
UTF-16 is not stable
Mak
we should concentrate on data type and string literals, not API
Plum
I thought our charter says that we're not going to define APIs but we
will look at and point to and describe APIs
Benito
our charter is not worded that way
Simonsen
Norway would be fine with quick TR to get UTF-16, then longer more
complex TR to get generic support
Meyers
don't believe that it would be difficult to write the 16-bit support
in way that would make Unicode happy
small group was put together to review revised TR
Plum, Wakker, Plauger, Mak, Meyers, Simonsen, Muller, Nobu
Simonsen
let's task small group to respond to Norwegian comments (disposition of
comments document)
Wakker
there were also comments from Japan, when will those be addressed?
Benito
we are waiting from reply/clarification from Nota-san
15.1 Future Meetings
see 1.9 above
15.1.1 Future Meeting Schedule
15.1.2 Future Agenda Items
generate press release (embedded TR, UTF-16 stuff, etc.)
Simonsen and Benito volunteered to draft
Keaton and Wakker volunteered to review
more volunteers would be welcome
15.1.3 Future Mailings
post Curacao 5/17
pre Santa Cruz 9/20
no paper mailings
16.2 Resolutions
16.2.1 Review of Decisions Reached
All straw votes are marked [straw vote].
16.2.2 Formal Vote on Resolutions
There was only one formal vote. The discussion and details are in
section 12.
Resolution: to instruct the WG14 convener to submit document WDTR 18037
as amended for SC22 PDTR ballot as quickly as possible after this meeting.
WG14 (7 present)
in favor 6
opposed 1
abstain 0
16.2.3 Review of Action Items
all action items are marked [AI]
all items that we should consider in a future revision of the Standard
are marked [rev]
16.2.4 Thanks to Host
16.3 Other Business
we should republish when we issue a new Standard (and update the
Standard number)
17. Adjournment
___________________________________________________________________________
2002-04-16 Embedded C minutes (day 1 of 3)
Attendees:
Walter Banks, Bytecraft
Allan Frederiksen, Nokia
Francis Glassborow, Independent
Barry Hedquist, Perennial
David Keaton, Independent
Jan Kristoffersen, Ramtex
P.J. Plauger, Dinkumware
Tana Plauger, Dinkumware
Tom Plum, Plum Hall
Willem Wakker, ACE
Topics to cover:
Status of Document
Fixed-Point
Hardware I/O
Address Spaces
Annexes
What to do with document after this meeting.
Key: *A* means Action item; *D* means Decision.
Status of Document
Changes from Redmond are highlighted.
Document Issues (fixed-point -- Willem):
A number of editor's notes need to be addressed.
Comments from Fred Tydeman (to be mentioned later).
Introduction: Jan: Are all paragraphs necessary?
*D* General agreement is to leave them in.
2.1.3 Rounding
Strike editor's note.
Changes will be allowed after the coming ballott.
2.1.4 Type Conversion/Usual Arithmetic Conversions
Should the text go here or to the rationale?
Willem feels its difference from usual C is important
enough to put it here.
Barry: TR rules are more flexible than rules for a
standard w.r.t. main text vs. rationale.
*D* General agreement to keep text here.
Changed names of types (fixed --> _Fixed).
*D* General agreement to keep this.
2.1.9 Formatted I/O
What should the conversion specifiers be?
R,r,Q,q were proposed to avoid three-letter
specifiers.
This makes format specifiers different from constant
specifiers.
Use of u in format specifiers could break existing
programs that use %u, so it would have to be %qu and
not %uq.
*D* General agreement to use R,r,Q,q instead.
Current proposal uses f style conversions as opposed
to e or g.
*D* General agreement that this is OK.
2.1.10 viewing a value as a different type
7.18.5.4 page 32
What guaranteed-large-enough integer type should be
used?
Bill Plauger: We should just have typedefs for
integers of the right sizes. To print them, just cast
them to intmax_t.
David: intfract_t, intaccum_t, etc.
*A* Willem will come up with a proposal.
Does anyone need fixed-point to wide string
conversion? Probably not.
2.2
Page 19 parallels specification of floating-point
types.
Should we try to accommodate anything other than 2's
complement types?
Nobody could think of a non-2's complement fixed-point
machine.
David: Fixed-point machines are recent, and recent
machines are 2's complement.
*D* General agreement to leave it 2's complement and let
people complain if their ox is gored.
First note on page 22 is to editor of C standard if
this TR is eventually adopted into the standard.
Second note -- pointer types? Check C standard to
make sure this is right.
Page 23 note on type qualifiers.
This is the point to introduce saturated integers if
we want them.
*A* The group agreed in Redmond not to have saturated
integers, so Willem will remove this note.
Page 36 conversions.
Recommended practice in C std. 7.21.3.
Willem suggests striking editor's note.
Return value of conversion functions on overflow?
*D* General agreement to use saturated result.
Document Issues (I/O HW -- Jan):
John Hauser proposed a new method via e-mail. He was not able
to attend this meeting.
Jan presented John's proposal.
New concept: base & index instead of addresses.
John's proposal requires a memory instantiation for
the access type because it passes pointers. 10-15%
slower than macros. Speed was the reason for the I/O
HW effort. Therefore, Jan suggests we not use John's
proposal. This would also avoid delaying the
document.
Some processors cannot even use a memory instantiation
because the I/O address is encoded in the instruction.
Jan likes some aspects of John's proposal and suggests
we encourage John to put it in a more final form for
next meeting, addressing Jan's issues, for possible
substitution instead of the existing wording in the
annex.
Meanwhile, work will proceed on the document as it is,
without delaying it.
Annex C, p. 64
Atomic operation -- not documented in normative part.
Needs to be.
*A* Jan will add normative words for atomic operation. (Done)
Document Issues (Address Spaces -- Walter):
Status: Walter's new document is not folded into the TR yet.
There are various feelings about whether compatibility with
existing C++ is required.
Should #pragmas be used or should new keywords be introduced?
*A* Walter will send out the latest draft of his proposal for
the group's review. (Done)
Walter: Address space extensions could save hardware. For
example, currently extended address space on an 8051 requires
external hardware. Compiler address space extensions
including call, return, etc. could eliminate that hardware.
There is little need to have operations other than read and
write for data objects.
The I/O HW proposal could be used to access regions of strange
types of memory, but would be missing the ability to use the
compiler's symbol table management, type system, alignment,
etc.
The requirements for adapting C++ to handle address spaces
have not yet been examined.
Worst case seen so far: Walter is working on a C compiler for
a new processor that has 7 address spaces.
*A* Willem, Jan, and Walter will flesh out a more detailed
proposal for later this week. (Done)
Annexes
*A* David will continue the old action item of documenting the
proposal that was rejected at Redmond for the rationale.
Preferred by May 1, when Willem goes on vacation for 3.5
weeks.
Fred Tydeman suggested rationale wording indicating that we
considered BCD and decided not to do it.
*A* Walter will write this up.
*A* Tom Plum will talk to John Hauser about collaborating on a C++
compatibility header for annex G.
*D* For the time being, annex G will be left as is in anticipation
of further elaboration.
2002-04-17 Embedded C minutes (day 2 of 3)
Willem distributed a revised TR with Walter's address space updates
included. We collectively went through the result.
There was some debate over the inclusion of "register" memory
spaces in the TR. Some people had seen several cases where
this would be needed; others wanted it moved to the annex.
Walter will consider this further.
Walter: Should we suggest naming conventions for memory
spaces? Something to think about.
Should #pragma be used or should another way be found?
*D* General agreement that #pragma should be used as currently in
the document.
Allan noted that we agreed in Copenhagen that -1*-1 could
yield FRACT_MAX, but this does not yet appear in section 2.
Division of FRACT_MIN or ACCUM_MIN by -1 has the same
problem.
*A* Willem will add this.
Willem asked an independent observer to review the document.
One point that resulted was that sometimes one might want to
multiply 100*0.5r and get an integer 50. The other was that
it makes little sense to add and subtract integers with
fracts.
Willem hopes to send out the next document revision before May
1 to make it in time for the next plenary ballot.
2002-04-18 Embedded C minutes (day 3 of 3)
Annex G, C++ compatibility
Bill: The example can be done with templates without
expanding all 1200 possbilities.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Minutes for J11/U.S. TAG Meeting
April 17, 2002
Randy Meyers, presiding
1) Debbie Donovan at INCITS would like the names of people who will work
on the new TR for characters (Walls)
Benito
there's no advantage in US doing that
let's just say US TAG and move on
Walls
if we had a lead individual that might be enough
Meyers volunteers to lead
2) liaison request (Benito)
Farance would like to see J11 have a formal liaison with INCITS M1
(biometrics), he would like to be that liaison
[AI] Meyers: will contact Farance and appoint him as our informal liaison
3) Farance request for additional type (Benito)
is there any interest in WG14 producing a TR on IEEE 1596.5?
(Shared Data Formats for Optimized Scalable Coherent Interface)
The rationale for wanting this work to start was sent by Benito
after the meeting:
"This work gives a user standardized datatypes (actually, typedefs) that
address byte ordering (little, big), alignment (aligned or not), and
representation (e.g., 2s complement, unsigned). Some of these types are
LittleSignedByte (8-bits)
AlignedLittleSignedDoublet (little-endian, 16-bits, aligned)
AlignedLittleSignedQuadlet (little-endian, 32-bits, aligned)
The reason for considering these kind of typedefs is: (1) they permit
the precise layout, endianness, alignment, and representation on the
common arithmetic types, (2) this certainty of layout is important for
network-centric programming, processinging portable file formats, and
shared-memory applications."
Keaton
if that group was in ISO we would eventually be required to bind to
them in some way
Meyers
is there is a vendor that is actually going to do this?
no support for adding this at this time
4) Adjournment 4:34 PM